The Blue Note Labels

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The Blue Note labels, from the ’50s to the present day -  a guide for the audiophile record collector

BLUE-NOTE-TIMELINE

The LondonJazzCollector Cheat Sheet 

The Highs and Lows in Blue Note audio quality

There is wide variation in the audio quality of Blue Note pressings when played on any modern high-end vinyl hi-fi system.

This varies from the loud and dazzling “musicians in the room” presence found on many original 1950′s Lexington and 47 West 63rd editions, and runs the whole gamut through to dull “musicians in the basement next door” sound of much later reissues, with some of the worst offenders the French  ”Direct Metal Master” pressings of the mid-Eighties and the 1986 Capitol US reissues.

Why Oldest can be Best 

Vinyl records are for playing, and there are sound reasons for seeking out earliest pressings which have nothing to do with them being valuable antiques or of sentimental historical interest, though those are all valid reasons. While some ’50s and 60′s original recordings, rock and pop particularly, sound “chronic” (that’s how they made them!) valve micsthe studio engineers behind jazz recording in the mid-Fifties were among the first users of the newest valve/ vacuum tube microphone designs such as Neumann U47 and AKG C7, creating an end-to-end analogue sound chain, every step of the way from instrument to microphone to tape to mastering lathe to vinyl.  By todays digital standards, original Blue Note, Prestige and Contemporary records are marvels of audiophile quality. All the more extraordinary because radiograms and portable record players of the day were entirely incapable of reproducing that quality, being designed more to damage the vinyl while playing it.

First pressings are generally considered the holy grail of audiophile quality, being the closest possible to the studio original tape recording and master acetate. The factory test pressing is considered the ultimate first pressing, as “first off the first stamper” will exhibit no sign of the progressive groove wear which follows subsequent pressing repetitions. Similarly there is the first stamper and subsequent stampers, the first mother and subsequent mothers. However somewhere among all “first pressings” are the first and the last off the stamper, so being a first pressing is itself not a guarantee of top audio quality.

British Decca reckoned to change stampers every 2,000 pressings. Other plants ran to 4,000, 6,000 even 10,0000 discs pressed before a fresh stamper was put in service. There is always an element of chance. From experience, there may be no audible difference between first and subsequent second pressings, being made from stampers derived from the same mother and master.Some pressing runs were fewer than a thousand records anyway. Pleasant surprises and unexpected disappointments are all part of collecting records .

What to look for on a Blue Note record

The challenge for the audiophile record collector is to determine from the label and engravings in the “deadwax / run-out /Trail off” whether a record is a  first pressing, a later pressing though still an “original” Blue Note (pre-1966), or a reissue originating in the subsequent decades of Blue Note ownership by Liberty, United Artists, or EMI. For some very early releases, corroborating information regarding the record cover is also required.

 An example of the markings required to determine a records provenance is shown below for BLP 1599 Bennie Green’s “Soul Stirring”, last of the 1500 series, released around 1959.

To sample a little of what it’s all about -  47 West 63rd St labels, Deep Groove mono, Blue Note first pressing shown below, just listen a while to the perfect audio reproduction:


For this particular record to be identified as a first pressing, all the identifiers shown below have to be present, on both sides of the record..

Fred Cohen’s excellent Guide to Blue Note First Pressings will give you all the knowledge required to determine the “first” of every release. My intention is not to repeat this, as you can  just buy Fred’s book, but to delve deeper, into the audio quality of the many releases and reissues, including the silky-smooth Japanese and the dismal European, right up to the present day. The sort of things you see most often when collecting, unlike those showcased in the fascinating Jazz Collector $1,000 bin.The rarest Blue Notes routinely command up to £5,000.

One thing common to all original Blue Note pressings through to the sale of the company in 1966 is the presence of the Plastylite pressing plant cursive “P” symbol, known to collectors as “the ear”, in the run-out both sides. None are found after 1966 when pressing of Blue Note records was transferred to other plants by Blue Note’s new owners, Liberty Records.

The presence of “the ear” is the definitive mark of an original Blue Note, not its label, inner sleeve or cover, as Liberty continued to use up the old stock of labels and covers for several more years, issuing ear-less BINOs - Bluenote In Name Only. (Plastylite “ear” is also found on some early Prestige records and early United Artists)

A Chronology of Blue Note Labels

1. 767 LEXINGTON AVE (1951-57)

Referred to by less experienced sellers as 161 Lexington Avenue                                   Blue Note catalogue numbers 1500 – 1543.

Lexingtons in excellent condition are the holy grail in terms of collectible historical artefact, prices to match. This era of Blue Note has many unique features for the very earliest pressings, such as a ” flat edge” to the heavy vinyl, covers manufactured with a kakubushi  frame construction (the paper from the back sleeve folds around the cover and appears in front, under the unlaminated cover art paper, leaving a shadow-line) the absence of printing on the cover spine. In addition, the engraving in the runout feature hand-written initials of master-engineer Rudy Van Gelder (replaced in 1957 by machine-stamped initials), and some also have a hand-written marking “9M”, who’s true meaning is unknown but believed to be a pressing plant code for aligning the mother of the stamper in the 9 o’clock position. No other combination of number or letter is known to exist.

Lexingtons can be extraordinary audio quality, though the very earliest recordings made in the nineteen forties lack dynamic range due to microphone limitations, and can sound “boxed-in”. Recordings made immediately after the war also sometimes do not come up to modern audio expectations, and not a few early Blue Note titles are re-mastered by Van Gelder from recordings made by others. However, generally, Lexington label Blue Notes sound magnificent. Playing my Lexington 1st issue of Blakey and the Jazz Messengers at Cafe Bohemia is like physically being there. The Messengers are not “between the hi-fi speakers”, you are in the room with them.

2. 47 WEST 63rd St NY 23 (1957-8)

These are gems, and usually priced similarly. As with the Lexingtons, the heavy vinyl ( 180-220 gm) is not only louder than other records, it is often quite resilient to surface damage from skating record arms, and they will often sound much better than they look. Even a few feelable light scratches generally can be tolerated and tend not detract from the music, especially if played on a turntable whose design provides better isolation of groove defects.

3. 47 WEST 63rd NYC without “23″, no Inc and no R (1957-59).

Beauties in the main, as above. May be second pressings of records originally issued on Lexington labels, but share the same original RVG matrix and sound for all intents and purposes identical, if not better as they have a few years less wear and tear

4. 47 West 63rd NYC with INC and R (1959-62)

Here begins both mono and stereo releases

4a. Mono

4b. Stereo

Manufactured after 1960 when “Blue Note Records” became an incorporated company and a registered trademark , and predecessor to the New York label. The same fine sound as 47W63rds without the INC and R, being pressed with stampers originating from the same Matrix/ mothers.

Collectors get very excited about absence of the “R” as proof of authenticity of earlier recordings. By my reckoning, the variability of sound quality within a pressing (” from first to last-off a pair of stampers”) is as great as the variability between the first and a second pressing a couple of years later. There is no way of second-guessing audio quality. Play the record. If it doesn’t excite you immediately, you probably have a pressing towards the end of the run, whatever the label says. Whether it matters or not gets back to why you are a collector. Some people collect wines without drinking them, some collect records without playing them, or play them on indifferent equipment  without ever really hearing them.

Recordings produced  by Blue Note during this period, a combination of Van Gelder’s sound engineering and Plastylite pressing, can spoil your willingness to tolerate lesser fare. Once you hear and understand what the “Blue Note pressing” business is all about, it is difficult to go back.

5. NEW YORK USA , ORIGINAL  MONO (1962-66)

Catalogue numbers 4101 – 4252 with anomalies

NY pressings are superb audio quality, which provide a rich satisfying musical experience, even when second or third pressings. They exhibit a wide dynamic range, a  bright upper register, lots of punch in the midrange, underpinned by a firm natural bass. In ordinary language, they sound “just right” for the acoustic instruments of modern jazz.  Second pressings can be extraordinarily good value compared with earlier “first” pressings sought by the most fastidious collectors. Mono is the collector format of choice. As a general rule, NY first pressings do not bear the deep groove pressing mark on either side, and those older dies were used more often with second and third pressings of earlier releases, though as is always the case with Blue Note, there are exceptions.

6. NEW YORK USA, ORIGINAL STEREO (1962-66)

Mono is often more rare and sought-after by collectors than stereo, which became the format of choice for later reissues.  Early stereo engineering was constrained by the primitive mixing technology of the day, where instruments could be “positioned” on only the left or right channel, or in the centre. Depending on the decisions made by the engineer, the feature artist may not be “centre stage”, with a resulting “hole in the middle”, quite unlike the rich modern stereo sound stage engineered for wide-apart speakers. Some engineers, notably Roy du Nann at Contemporary, were masters of the stereo format, whilst others saw stereo as a fad or afterthought, and gave their fullest attention to the mastering of the mono release.

Ultimately, mono or stereo is a matter of personal preference and many collectors enjoy having copies of both the mono and stereo edition (which can be a very different mix). (Note: mono editions benefit from listening in mono-switched amplification)

RVG-STEREOOriginal Blue Notes in stereo generally carry the “RVG STEREO” stamp in the runout, indicating the masters handiwork. In recent interviews, van Gelder admitted that when he remastered for CD (Van Gelder Editions) in the Nineties he sometimes made different choices in the mixing because the original choices on the vinyl masters were limited by the the technology of the day.

Many mono pressings were sourced from stereo tapes and folded down into mono. Later, when stereo became vogue, genuine stereo pressings were easily possible from source. However among some later reissues from the Blue Note catalogue by Liberty and UA, recording originally made in mono were “electronically reprocessed” to simulate stereo, not making good stereo and making a mess of the original dynamics. Always check whether the stereo is claimed to be sourced from original stereo tapes, or electronically reprocessed to simulate stereo (and avoid the later)

7. DIVISION OF LIBERTY (1966-70)

The sale of Blue Note to the giant Liberty Records in 1966 marked the end of an era. The vital task of record pressing moved overnight from Plastylite NJ, who had pressed all Blue Notes to date, initially to Liberty’s newly acquired pressing plant All Disc Records, Roselle NJ, and later to other plants including Research Craft on the West Coast, and elsewhere.

The trademark “ear” of Plastylite disappeared immediately from the vinyl trail-off, however existing inventory stocks of Blue Note “original” labels and covers were used up first before printing more, and these early pressings for Liberty with older labels are commonly passed off as original Blue Note (note: no ear!). Blue Note Records became a Division of Liberty Records Inc, which name replaced the “New York” address on the record label. After 1968 the increasingly troubled Liberty Records was acquired by Transamerica, a diversified financial conglomerate who also owned United Artists, into which it ultimately merged Blue Note Records. The label remained officially the “Division of Liberty” until 1970, however pressing quality, studio engineering and cover art  became increasingly variable in quality from here on..

Catalogue numbers 4253 – 4300 were first releases by Liberty, while earlier catalogue numbers were reissues apart from a few deferred pressings, released long after their recording date and allocation of their Blue Note catalogue number. All lack the telltale “ear”, and audio quality is variable. Early reissues from 1966 can be the match of Plastylite, but the quality soon dropped off, as they did across the industry. It is not uncommon to find pressings of this period where the dynamic range is compressed: the top-end subdued (treble rolled off, nominally to reduce tape hiss), and the bottom end muddy and confused.

8. LIBERTY/UA (WEST COAST) 1970-1

Catalogue numbers 4330-434x

The anomalous blue and black label design issued by the west coast arm of United Artists. Probably indicative of the creative tensions between LA and New York at the time, it smacks of a “we can do whatever we want here in California” attitude.The sound quality is often very good, though not consistently. Sought after by collectors-on-a-budget in the know, these pressings are much cheaper than Blue Note originals and can be very enjoyable listen until you can get an original Blue Note. However, Japanese pressings are much superior to these in my view.

9a. DIVISION OF UNITED ARTISTS (EAST COAST) 1971-3

Many of these “Division of United Artists” reissues are exceptional quality pressings which, unexpectedly, do not bear an RVG stamp in the run-out, meaning they were not pressed with metalwork pulled from an original van Gelder Master, like later United Artists reissues. The origin of these pressings remains a mystery, and they are underpriced by sellers who class them along with later reissues.There are suspicions they may have been pressed with metalwork derived from masters created for the Japanese market or remastered from the original tapes by UA house engineers. Whatever the reason, these issue are highly recommended

9b. DIVISION OF UNITED ARTISTS “(P) 1975″

In contrast to the excellent classic pressings of the first wave under Division of United Artists, above, it seems there was a later attempt to revive the classic brand, which isn’t in the same audio league. They bear the legend “(p) 1975 United Artists Music and Records Group” on the label in place of the artists listing, and one found by contributor Stefano was using an old stock Liberty cover.

Nice to see the classic label revived but manufactured after the 1973 watershed in the cost of vinyl, after the hike in the price of Oil, which  triggered the long decline in the quality of vinyl pressing, particularly from the volume plants serving the big record labels.

9c United Artists Blue label Reissue Series

2-LP sets in brown/monochrome gatefolds, which feature previously unreleased recording sessions, mainly from the early to mid sixties, found by UA in the Blue Note vaults by Michael Cuscuna. UA took the initiative in 1975 to extract more value from its Blue Note asset, particularly artists who had gone on to become bigger names since these recordings were made. The Reissue Series created a new catalogue number series BN-LA nnn H2. Whatever the merits of the music and original recording engineer (Van Gelder mostly), the pressings are sometimes rather unsatisfactory transfers, not to the standard of the previous decade, with compressed dynamic range and an overall lack of presence. However the material is previously unreleased and the sets are good value at the going rate of around $20 for a double LP.

10.DIVISION OF UNITED ARTISTS INC - BLUE LABEL BLACK NOTE (1973-6)

The all-blue label, often carrying the VAN GELDER machine stamp in the run-out. Far from being an assurance of quality, it generally indicates a record pressed from overused Blue Note legacy stampers, resulting in pressings which are dull and lacking in dynamic range. More commonly available than original Blue Notes, not considered collectable, cheaply priced, not especially recommended other than as a substite for some expensive sought-after titles.

11.UNITED ARTISTS MUSIC AND RECORDS GROUP – BLUE LABEL WHITE NOTE mainly 1977-8 (some earlier)

A mainly reissue label from the twilight years of United Artists ownership. The iconic Blue Note catalogue number series, built up since 1956, was casually tossed, little pride in ownership of a piece of history. Some original material is found on a few releases, including “previously unreleased” material from 1957-69 in the LT series (LT987 - LT1103), but the audio quality can be extraordinarily poor. On one of my copies, there is such severe dynamic range compression that there is almost no top end and the percussion is entirely missing. People were making poor decisions in engineering, mastering and pressing, which failed to realise the musical potential of vinyl.

12. EMI FRANCE – PATHE MARCONI (1980-3)

Pathe Marconi became the first pressing vehicle for Blue Note’s new owner EMI, for European Blue Note reissues, and just a few first releases. Their pressings are not wonderful, average for the standard of their day, but predated the DMM disaster that was to follow under EMI France.

From 1983 EMI Pathe Marconi  released Blue Note titles variously dated “re-edition 1983“, 1984 and 1985.  Some of these, especially the earlier years, not DMM, are pretty reasonably pressings, remastered by French engineers, and can be a very acceptable copy of titles that are impossibly rare and expensive to find as originals.

However EMI France soon began to adopt the Teldec DMM technology, which  are identified by the dreaded Direct Metal Mastering symbol. DMM  was a wonderful theory about creating superior quality pressings but its implementation delivered wooden dead lifeless sound.  These records are in my judgement the worst  comparative audio quality imaginable, though I have had people tell me they are quite happy with them and I actually have one (Leo Parker Rollin’ with Leo)  which is really good. I bought quite a few before I knew better, and traded them back for pennies.(Out of interest, the last working DMM lathe in the US was sold in 2005 to the Church of Scientology to issue the speeches of founder Ron L Hubbard )

The SACEM logo is the French copyright system for collecting royalties, which on Japanese pressings is replaced by the JASPAC logo and GEMA in Germany. It has no bearing on the music, and in any event, many of the artists were by now long dead, past benefitting from royalties.

13.1 CAPITOL EMI 1986 +

US pressings on the classic Blue & White Label “The Finest in Jazz Since 1939″ on label. Not the Finest in Audio Quality Since 1939, that’s for certain.! Poor vinyl pressing quality, irrespective if the music itself, best avoided. At this point, CD will generally offer a more satisfying musical experience

13.2 CEMA Special Markets 1993

1990′s EMI effort to enter the “budget” market. CEMA was a record label distribution branch and budget label of Capitol-EMI. The name CEMA stood for the four EMI-owned labels it originally distributed: Capitol Records, EMI Records, Manhattan Records and Angel Records . Subsequently renamed EMI Music Distribution (EMD).

Xavier-Capitol-CEMA--1000px

Photo courtesy of Xavier

14. EMI FRANCE – CAPITOL RECORDS MODERN “BLUE NOTE” MUSIC GROUP

Modern pressing and engineering standards. The bass is sometimes over-hyped by DJ/ sound engineers who have spent too much time producing dance and club music, or thinking about the download market for iPod and iTunes and not serious vinyl listeners. Good control of bass is not easy to achieve, but essential to balanced reproduction of the upper register and the full dynamic range. What is it about some middle-aged men and dance music meant for people half their age? Whoops. I think I answered my own question.

I am not a fan of the modern and more recent roster of Blue Note artists, like the modestly talented Wynton Marsalis, super-annuated Lincoln Jazz Centre functionary, of whom the very competitive Miles Davis once said  ”Wynton thinks playing music is about blowing people up on stage.” In 1986, in Vancouver, Davis famously stopped his band to eject an uninvited Marsalis from the stage. Davis said “Wynton can’t play the kind of shit we were playing”, and twice told Marsalis “Get the fuck off.” That spat continued with Marsalis describing Davis as dressed like a “buffoon”, which thinking of Miles wardrobe in those days was probably fair comment. Whatever, it’s not good jazz.

Of the latest intake, take this music industry hype:

Robert Glasper “boldly stakes out new musical territory and transcends any notion of genre, drawing from jazz, hip hop, R&B and rock,… urban music, seamlessly incorporating appearances from a jaw-dropping roll call of special guests including Erykah Badu, Bilal, Lupe Fiasco, Lalah Hathaway, Shafiq Husayn (Sa-Ra), KING, Ledisi, Chrisette Michele, Musiq Soulchild, Meshell Ndegeocello, Stokley Williams (Mint Condition), and yasiin bey (Mos Def).”

Aggregating works of lesser talents does not create a greater talent. Listen to Glasper’s Black Radio - derivative urban muzak with a walk-on roster of artists with made up and mis-spelt names with edgy ethnic overtones. Modern Blue Note have, like many in the business, gone in search of the new demographic hypnotised by the influence of rap and hip hop.

The next Charlie Parker, Coltrane or Monk is not to be found here, nor much else in the way of real original talent. It takes time to master an instrument and no-one today has the time to learn to play, nor much of the audience the patience to learn to listen. Gratification is required to be instant. The Blue Note legacy remains obstinately uncommercial outside of its small niche.

14. AUDIOPHILE REISSUES

2x45rpm 180gm  ANALOGUE PRODUCTIONS

Proper “audiophile” reissues including Classic Records and Analog Productions , are remastered from the original tapes, not a digital copy plonked on 180gm vinyl. My one excursion into the audiophile reissue market was an expensive disappointment (£42 for a 2x45rpm of Grant Green’s Idle Moment).  Despite enthusiastic reception by collectors who swear by the “authenticity” of the sound, I have A:B play tested against the corresponding original Blue Note, and the Blue Note originals is, to my ear, streets ahead of the audiophile pressings.

It is impossible to evaluate subjective descriptions like “fantastic sound quality!” without knowing what the listener’s point of reference is. Audiophile pressings are much superior to 80′s re-issues, but in my view  they just don’t come at all close to Blue Note originals. However more than a few collectors have praised Classic Records editions, such as  Kind of Blue, as superior to the Columbia originals, and there are cases where the original pressing is not actually as good as what followed..

15. Mosaic Limited Edition Collections

These limited edition collections were issued under license in runs of typically 7,500 units from the mid Eighties onwards by Mosaic Records. Mosaic is headed by Michael Cuscuna, Head of Reissues and Special Projects at Blue Note Records since 1984 to the present day. All vinyl sets have been out of print for many years and are available only on the second hand market. The vinyl quality is often superlative, and remastering was from original session tapes, and remastered in some cases by Rudy Van Gelder, though more commonly by Ron McMaster of EMI

More on the Mosiac Label here

16. DIGITAL-TO-ANALOGUE CLONES – “304 Park Avenue South” address

I call these The South Parks. Scorpio Records NJ have for over a decade manufactured or licensed the manufacture of RINOs (Records In Name Only) of Blue Note and other collectible period labels including Prestige, Tempo, Limelight and others. You want a Mobley 1568 for $15? Scorpio make one.

These digital-to-vinyl transfers use the modern Blue Note address 304 Park Avenue S NYC on the classic Blue & White label. Note the absence of the “Inc” and the “R”: (it’s ironic) The jacket is photo-reproduced on modern plastic-finish card, with original liner notes but no indication of modern name of manufacturer or date of production ie all the “original” detail, but the modern printing technology is an instant giveaway. They pop up on eBay described to snare the unwary. “Recorded in 1957!! Mint!! Still sealed!!!” These records have all of the disadvantages of vinyl with none of its advantages.

Scorpios have been pressed in tens of thousands and are sold widely at around $10-15. That said, there are worse ways to spend $15 and I bought quite a few when I was starting out. For some people, a Scorpio is as close as they will ever get to owning the legendary Mobley 1568.

Next: |  Blue Note Japanese Pressings of the ’70s and ’80s

or skip to: | The Blue Note Addresses

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91 thoughts on “The Blue Note Labels

  1. Hi Again LJC,
    I’ve noticed a few blue note LPs being sold which have the United Artists address on the label, except the album name and artist is written in a different black font instead of blue and the album name is in quotation marks. Are these genuine united artists labels? If so from which year?I don’t see this in the pic above.
    Cheers Sam

    • Definitely Vinyl Detective material, Sam. The differences you describe look to me down to who printed the labels – this is a specialist field of study. We know Keynote Printed Specialties Scranton PA to be the printers of classic Blue Note original and first wave Liberty labels, and we can identify some of the West Coast printed Libertys. But who printed for giant labels like UA in the Seventies God alone knows (God in this case being W.B. of the Steve Hoffman Forum – the man who knows absolutely everything about everything) The printers are not necessarily an indicator as to who mastered or pressed the records, which is the bit that sometimes matters. If you have a picture of the variation fire it across.

  2. OK, I’m going to disagree with your characterization of the AP/MM 45 rpm reissues.

    1. You’re comparing the Analogue Productions/Music Matters releases to the UK issues that were probably at least a gen down the line from the US issues. Apples and oranges and if they sounded the same, you know something is wrong.

    2. You really don’t know what tape generation was sent to the UK for pressing eg. was the tape pre-EQ’d for what they [Blue Note] thought the UK market wanted sonically? Or was the UK mastering engineer allowed freedom when cutting? You know for a fact that Blue Note didn’t send the original master tape and most likely a safety generation. That was quite common coming in both directions across the Atlantic. So certainly the fidelity of the UK reissues, to the original master is in question.

    3. OTOH, you know that Chad, Joe and Ron used the “original” tapes.” In fact, even in some cases with the Contemporary tapes, Chad’s reissues were a gen earlier than ANY other release ever done. And it’s an incontrovertible fact that the earlier the tape, the better the sound. Which tape used, the care in mastering and pressing, digitization along with tape aging are probably responsible for the dismal sound of later Blue Note reissues. So the bottom line is unless one knows what tape was used for mastering each issue/reissue, these sort of comparison are really invalid.

    4. The gold standard for comparison is still against the master tape. I’ve several early gen 15 ips/2 track copies (2-3) of Blue Note releases (played back on what might be considered a SOTA deck equipped with modern electronics, either tube or ss) and done those comparisons. Outside of the original Blue Notes, the 45 rpms come the closest sonically to the tape. If you’re ever in the US, I’d be glad to do that demo for you and you can make your own decision :) PS. The Tape Project has already released Jimmy Smith’s The Sermon (and Lee Morgan’s Sidewinder is slated for Series 3 release) on 15 ips tape. Certainly these types of comparisons are invaluable for comparing and assessing the LP reissues/issues since one might be surprised that even the best LPs pale against the tape :(

    5. Another item that is rarely mentioned is the condition of the disc. Jazz lovers, bless their heart, compared to classical lovers who played their albums once and put it on a shelf, played their albums to death. So good luck in finding a clean copy of early BN releases :( While I love the music, if it’s buried in sea of muck and mire and pops and tics (and that’s cleaning using the amazing Audio Deske RCM), you might as well listen to the digital transfer ;(

    BTW, I enjoy reading your musical critique/history of the recordings!

    Myles

    • Hi Myles
      Other people have said to me something similar – that the gold standard is tape – I was offered a copy of Bill Evans Waltz for Debby on tape last year, but the cost didn’t include buying a machine to play it on! I’ll believe you.

      Re Music Matters, I have just ordered a couple of MMs directly from Ron in the States. We will hear what we hear and no doubt will want to update the commentary, soon.

      House motto: Nullius in Verba rough translation – “Take no-ones word for it”

      • The trouble with listening on tape is two-fold.

        1/ The recordings were made to be listened to on record. On Blue Note recordings for instance Rudy was putting things onto the tape knowing how they would sound on record. The tape’s greater fidelity would not be the issue, but how that sound could be turned into a record. Meaning that what you get on tape is not necessarily closer to what the producers were trying to create. Records would not be able to reproduce what would be on the tape, so the tape would be recorded in a way to make the records sound better. That’s why mastering is such a skill and makes such a difference to how a record sounds.
        This is significantly more important on Blue Note as the recording engineer was also the mastering engineer, who knew what compression he was likely to use on the cut as he was recording the music.

        2/ At a distance of forty years, the analogue tape source will not be pristine. It’s often a good starting point if it had been well looked after, but it will be nothing like mastering from the tape at the time the music was recorded. That’s why de-noising happens on so many reissues, because there is a whole lot of sound on the tapes that isn’t supposed to be there. As such making a tape to tape copy just gives you a very good copy of something that it isn’t perfect in the first place. On the minus side tapes are far harder to look after well than records and they deteriorate even when they are not being played, on the plus side they are far less likely to get played than a record.

        From the mid 1950s to the late 60s Blue Note never pressed anywhere but America. Alfred LIon decided against licensing out his product. British journalist Roy Carr told me the reason for this and I’m pretty sure he said it was to do with quality control – Roy worked for Alfred for a short time. So the only time the record was ever mastered was by Rudy Van Gelder from the pristine tape. No second generation copy tapes unless something had gone badly wrong.

        I’m not trying to say that the tape project isn’t interesting, just that the idea that it is the ultimate way to hear the sound is to ignore many of the factors that go into making a record, and how the tapes would then be looked after.

        • Very interesting Dean, not heard the issue of what’s on the tape vs what’s on the record put that way before. It certainly explains why reissues “mastered from the original tapes” does not tell the whole story, as per AP/MM. I won’t be investing in a tape machine.

          Perhaps Lion should have taken a leaf out of Prestige’s book and sent metalwork abroad instead of copy tape, as with those to Prestige – Esquire/ Metronomes. etc. Van Gelder must have been aware of that alternative solution. Perhaps they just cared less about business side.

          • LJC
            I don’t think Lion did after a few licenses in the early to mid 50s. I think he sold finished albums and that was it. No one was allowed to remaster a Blue Note record in those days.

        • That’s one way to look at it but not the way that I look at it.

          First of all, Blue Note was far from unique in their approach eg. having the recording/mastering engineer involved. Pretty much every small label was a mom and pop show back then.

          Two, reread your first paragraph because I found it very confusing and really a set of contradictions.

          Third, RVG and others were above all mastering their recordings with both the limitations of the cutting lathes back and THE playback equipment in mind. It was a rare person like George Piros of Mercury who could get a dynamic cut in those days from the cutting lathe. That’s why so many labels went to him for mastering their recordings in the day.

          Lastly, I disagree about the reason for “de-noising.” It was about removing tape hiss such as on some early tape formulations that used large magnetic particles. And the de-noising is de-stroying the music and sound.

          As far as the tapes being recorded to make the LPs sound better: that’s not been the opinion of those in the know who have listened to the Blue Note master tapes. Have you ever listened to the master tapes (or even a copy) to draw your conclusion or is this second hand info? I would profer that the newer releases are closer to what was put down on original tape than the originals–even with tape aging effects.

          • Myles
            my day job is listening to old master tape. I have listened to master tapes from Blue Note, Prestige and scores of soul and R&B labels. The only people who say that there is no loss of fidelity down the years from master tapes, are those who are selling new releases mastered directly from them. Some are good, some are bloody awful.
            It’s rare for a recording engineer to also be the mastering engineer, I can’t think of anyone who did it as regularly as Rudy Van Gelder for LPs. Please share who else was doing so in such vast numbers.
            Of course you can fetish the original tapes, but the engineers job was to make records not tapes for audiophiles, and they knew what they often knew what would have to be done after the recording to make these viable records – within the views of the day.
            Tapes are of course a raw way of looking at the music recorded at a session, however I think a pristine original record would trump it most times.

  3. Hey LJC could you email me at samrileymusic@hotmail.com ??
    I want to send you a eBay link to an album (without making it public on here) because I can’t work out which of Liberty this album is.
    It’s got the liberty jacket, so the back is different. Can’t tell from pics if it has the plastylite symbol. It doesn’t say that it does, which I suppose indicates its not the earlier Liberty.
    Thanks mate hope you can help.
    Sam

  4. Hi no sorry I mean the number 11, blue label white note. Would there be any benefit compared to CD or should I wait til a king or toshiba shows up? I have been outbid on a few originals of this album, it’s quite frustrating! :)

    • I have had around a half dozen of the Blue label/white note, and pretty disappointing for the most part. Case in point, Sam Fisher, Inventions &Dimensions (CD) vs “Involutions” (LP) – the evil silver disk is a much more satisfying performer than the vinyl. Your mileage may vary but I can’t recommend those late Seventies United Artists white note fellas – the wrong side of 1975.

      A better option on a budget is a Toshiba or a King, or – if you can find one – an early Division of Liberty(1966-7) emphasise early – not the Transamerica years 1968-70, which in my experience don’t compare

  5. Hey LJC.
    Would you recommend I go for a blue/w white note label 70′s pressing if I cannot afford the original?? I’ve been waiting for a jap issue of a particular album but can’t find one. Should I take the blue/white note label LP chance?? Or is it a waste of money? Roughly what would you say a hardbop album with this label might be worth??
    Cheers sam

    • “70′s Blue and white label” – to be clear – the “classic” blue and white Blue Note label” appeared in the Seventies only 1970-3 as “Division of United Artists” Example 9a above. If that’s what you mean, these are highly recommended and usually cost anything between £20 and £45, depending on the rarity of the title.
      Be helpful to confirm which of the labels in the labelography above you had in mind if not that one.

  6. Hi LJC,
    I just received a new copy of Blue Train this morning (ordered before I came across your blog, nobody’s perfect) and the label is different from the usual Scorpio reissues. I’m pretty sure it’s one of them, but the label is the same as the Capitol/EMI reissues of the late 80s, with a CEMA copyright. And on the back cover, the DMM sign… Very confusing.
    I’ll listen to it this evening. Let you know.
    BTW, great blog and thank you for the music selections.

      • The blue train copy has two serial number, the standard blue note one (81577) and another one that is found in the dead wax (56987). The copyright is 1993 CEMA special markets. I email you a picture of the label.
        The sound is fine but I think my new copy of something else (real Scorpio) sounds better. But I can just compare with others reissues by French label Heavenly Sweetness (there are from analogue tapes, copies made by Capitol I think). Still waiting for my first original pressings (due next week).

          • Joe, this is the one. I’ll give it a second try this evening, before looking for an other copy, may be at my local record store this time.

            • Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and perhaps the ear. The Capitol “Finest in Jazz Since 1939″ editions – and this one says the dreaded Direct Metal Master DMM I think – I have found fairly unpleasant, but hey, I’ve been wrong before, this one may be one of the exceptions. If it sounds good to you, that’s what matters.

              • I bought Blue Train Blue Note BLP 1577 in the late sixties.

                It’s in NM state, cover and record.

                There’s a deep groove on both sides and a “R” after “NOTE”.

                The address is: “47 West 63rd – NYC”

                There’s an ear.

                On the back of the cover, the address is : “BLUE NOTE RECORDS INC., 43 West 61st ST., New York 23”.

                Would it possible to have some information on the origin and approximate sale value of this record in NM state?

  7. hi LJC,
    been loving reading your blog. just discovered last week and been having a blast!
    at present i am listening to a mid 70s blue label repress of lee morgan’s ‘in search of…’ and i must admit that it sounds absolutely identical to an orig 60s stereo pressing i have. this orig stereo press has the ear in run-out + all the usual signifiers of quality. the reissue has the van gelder + stereo stamp. and i should also note the sound overall is quite nice, not muddy, resonant low end, punchy, a worthwhile sonic experience (in my humble though admittedly non audiophile opinion)
    perhaps this is an anomaly? perhaps my ‘orig’ suffered from a last run mother? find any others that have slipped through cracks like this one?

    • Hi BFBN and welcome (no photos please, see my agent)

      The trouble with rules is exceptions. Most of the Blue label UA issues are in my experience ( I reckon based on around thirty or forty at one time) are what I consider sonically poor, and also the Blue labels are mostly Stereo, and I prefer a (good) mono. But I too have the odd Blue label which sounds great, but a note of caution – if you eventually pick up an original, you may well find the original is better still. Its all relative.

      LJC’s 1st Law of Audio Quality is “closest to source is (generally) best”: Test pressings, review copies, 1st press, second pressings, reissues. And somewhere near the end there, The Evil Silver Disc

      It holds good most of the time but its still no guarantee. I have to odd original which is worthy but dull, and a few unexpected superb “reissues”. With later reissues, I avoid DMM like the plague, but I had one turn up which is a joy to listen to. Same goes with Fantasy reissues. Old hands tell me its all about who happened to be the engineer that day.

      On that depressing note – LJC’s 2nd Law : Uncertainty is about as certain as it gets… Cheers!

      To take this debate to its ultimate obssesive level, try this
      http://www.high-endaudio.com/softw.html#Intro

      Hard-line Original Pressing-Fundamentalist: one who believes it is essentially “impossible” for any reissue to ever sound as good as any original.

      • i hear you about the dmm’s. i made the sad mistake of buying 2 at once and it was a sonic tragedy! and that’s no understatement – they sounded worse then the lowest bitrate mp3.
        On another note, im doing a presentation about vinyl record collecting to a class of art school kids in a few days and because you’re site has gotten me so hyped about blue notes again, i’ve decided to share some of them with the class.
        the hard thing now is deciding exactly which ones to showcase. think for me horace silver 6 piece has to be up there. senor blues was a nice step forward in jazz at that time and after 55+ years it still sounds fresh. thnx again and keep up the tip top work mate!

        • What a coincidence: I don’t think I’ve told him yet, but LJC inspired me to start my own record collecting blog (which should be launched within the month)! Also, that’s so cool that you’re going to share your experience with kids at school! I’ve been in education for a while now and someday I intend to create a one-day sort of lesson for music students at inner-city schools focused on pointing out the many similarities and connections between jazz (bop) and hip hop culture.

          • @DG Mono,
            Yeah, i had the good fortune of being asked by an educator friend of mine who works for OCAD (one of Canada’s finest education institutions for the arts). if all goes well might be able to pitch it to other schools so fingers croxxed about that.
            im gonna run the gamut of what i’m into so the jazz is but a piece of the puzzle but as i said above, after reading this blog extensively over the past few days, that ‘piece’ is going to be significant, especially considering half the experience for these students is going to be in the actual listening of the songs. well recorded first pressing blue notes (and other jazz) just sounds so nice that i;m sure the kids won’t know what him em! it’s either that or they’ll wonder why the heck there’s no digital artifact trailing each note in the song! haha

        • The DMMs were probably sourced from a crappy digital copy; even if not, the DMM preview for the cutter head digitizes everything anyway :( I’m a fan of the stereos and if you believe Music Matters, the BN monos were stereo foldowns. One must also be careful about rushing to judgement about the sound of the mono vs. stereo unless you’ve heard the tape (which I have and have a few well done 15 ips transfers that I playback through a totally rebuilt R2R machine.). I guarantee you would think you died and went to heaven if you heard the stereo tape!

          • (@ LJC: oh brother…here I go again… ;)

            BN monos are stereo fold-downs but Van Gelder was mixing and monitoring in mono so when he folded down he was getting what he heard when he was mixing. The MM team do not acknowledge this but there’s plenty of evidence of it out there in RVG interviews. They “can’t believe” he didn’t take care to prepare those stereo mixes because they sound so good to them, but he didn’t. It’s on record straight from the horse’s mouth. If they sound good it’s purely coincidental; his focus was mono.

            The problem I have with the MM literature (http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html) is that it has been misleading everyone for quite some time now that 1. the stereo tapes are one generation better than the mono (not true and doesn’t even make sense since mono tapes don’t even exist), and 2. Van Gelder’s artistic intention was stereo; it’s not even as if he gave both stereo and mono equal care and consideration, it’s the exact opposite: his focus was mono through the mid-sixties. It would be one thing if they simply left it at, “we think the stereo mixes sound better so we’re going to reissue those”. But they took it a step further (a big step short albeit) while acknowledging that the mono master LACQUERS were fold-downs of the two-track session tapes (there were no mono master TAPES) but failing to acknowledge that he wasn’t mixing or monitoring in stereo.

            My first exposure to this topic a few years ago was the MM literature and it had me in the stereo camp for a while too, but then I started doing some research and found their information to be incomplete.

            BTW, my preference for mono is part in theory but it’s also partly based on experience: I’ve heard both stereo and mono original RVG masters of the same title on vinyl. TBPH I like hearing the nuances of the drums in isolation (I’m a rhythm guy) but overall I like the punch and balance of the mono.

            I’m a man on a mission, LJC =P

          • Another reason why I’m not crazy about stereo from this time period is I’m not the kind of guy to sit down at the sweet spot and listen: I do all my critical listening with headphones (shame on me…I know, there’s no way in hell I’m getting into audiophile heaven).

            • The choice of playbck systems clearly may affect our reaction to the two sources plus having heard the tapes (and yes I’m an audiophile as you might guess from having R2R setup).. To my ears, the monos have a hollow sound to them that I don’t care for–though that might be mititaged if one uses a mono cartridge for playback of the mono LPs.

              • I’ve had a couple R2R’s in my time! Tape can be damn near close to dead quiet when you push the headroom and run at a high IPS.

                I love to absorb the contrasting opinions of music lovers who don’t get a hot head about the differences in taste people might have. I could see “narrow”, but “hollow”? If anything, early stereo mixes with everything hard left and right and no phantom image center should be called hollow.

                I have owned a Grado MC+ mono cart and it sounded identical to a Shure M44G and M44-7 with the mono button pushed in on my amp. But yeah, summing the channels one way or another makes a significant difference.

                I totally respect people’s preference for RVG stereo! I just like to set the record straight regarding what his intention was.

  8. For those who did not like the Idle Moments Analogue Productions, really no big deal, I recommend listening to Blue Train 45RPM Stereo, Saxophone Colossus, Way Out West / Sonny Rollins / 33 RPM, all Analogue productions.
    The latter is impressive. Despite the old stereo, the trio sax, bass and drums are inside our room …
    http://www.acousticsounds.com

  9. 1. I am very curious what audio system and turntable/arm/cartridge you used to compare the Acoustic Sounds 45 rpm reissues with the original BNs?
    2. Did you take into account the difference in record thicknesses?
    3. I am puzzled why you came down on the AP reissues yet said nothing about the sound of the Mosaics. The Mosaics definitely have a sound and it’s not the original.

    • Hi Myles – The LJC audio system is illustrated here (plumbing and all) http://londonjazzcollector.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/wholesystem-parts.jpg

      The bits you cant see are as per your question, Cartridge: Dynavector DV20X high output moving coil, the arm is the Origin Live Encounter, both mounted on the Avid Volvere Sequel illustrated here

      http://londonjazzcollector.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/avidnewfinal1600-1100.jpg

      Its a fairly revealing system, though not quite as revealing as a friend’s Roksan system on which I have also auditioned all the vinyl written about, with the same conclusions from both our ears.

      The VTA on my tonearm is optimised on a 180 gram original Blue Note, which is coincidentally about the same weight as most audiophile productions. If the thickness differs significantly I would be surprised. The VTA should be slightly off with say a thin Japanese 120gm press, but it still sounds “pretty good” which means of course not very good, but you have to settle for a compromise – there are people who say you should adjust the VTA for every record individually, ho ho ho!

      The Mosaics have a quite different sound to Blue Note originals, you are quite right, I haven’t commented on them. The Tina Brooks box set is hard to A:B against originals as my budget has never run to Tina Brooks original pressings – Japan only.I have some Bud Powell on both – I should get a clear outcome, but I anticipate the Mosaic will come out sounding like Japanese pressings rather than original Blue Note. Nice, but without fire in the belly.However it can be a close call on older recordings where the limitations are the more primitive microphones and recording equipment of the early 50′s, not the final pressing.

  10. Hi ,
    I just bought 2 pcs of early blue notes ( sonny Clark 1579 and lee Morgan 1578 ). These 2 pcs a bit unique. Both are W63rd , no inc , no register R mark and have the 9M mark on the dead wax. But both are non deep groove. Can anyone help to identify this pressing. Was told it is a 2nd press. I am quite interested to know as I never see this before. Non deep groove suppose to be a new York pressed I thought. Most of the W63rd were with deep groove .thanks

    • 1578 & 9 date from 1957, at which time the press was DG both sides.. No doubt it was pressed by stampers with direct lineage to the original master,hence all the etchings you describe. It has the ears doesn’t it? You don’t mention it. No ear and its a Liberty 1966+. Assuming they have the ear, they are Plastylite, the non-DG dies were introduced by Plastylite in 1961(though DG appears from time to time, mostly on subsequent pressings) Your records being no-DG dates them as a repressing some time after 1961. My guess earlier rather than later as they were still using up old stock labels.
      If you have access to digital scale, the weight of the vinyl can help date it. Original 47 West 63rds weigh an average 180gm, By 1966 this had fallen to around 160gm. Can’t be more precise as individual records have variation in weight around those averages, but it will give you an indication.
      Both these records should sound pretty amazing from what you describe, you are very fortunate.

      • If it weighs lighter than 180gm , say like 160gm. Is it as good as a New York pressing but with a 63rd sticker and a 9M mark on the dead wax

  11. Hi LJC,

    I have a kind suggestion. Maybe have the ability to comment on each label individually instead of at the bottom. Just a thought, I know it must be extremely difficult to run this site and its a labor of love. Anyways, I have a question about a “DAB” in the dead wax of a 70s blue/black label blue note. I have RVG and vangelder pressings but never a “dab”, anyone?

    Cheers,
    Carlos

    • Hi Carlos, I hear you about the comments per label but the design of WordPress – the publishing engine and html code underneath all this stuff – is not sufficiently flexible to allow comment s to be tacked on to items in a page, only at the bottom. The only way around it would be to create many separate Blue Note pages, one per label, so comments would be at the bottom but specific to each label. Its too much. What I might think to do at some point is to break them up in to three or four clusters of labels, if you follow me.

      What I have just done is change the sort order on comments, so now the most recent comments come to the top. I never anticipated generating so much “attention”.
      About “DAB” – some of the UA engineers liked to add their initials to the runout – Ive seen a few but never thought to note them down.

    • Actually yes that is the quarter note logo I am talking about. Surprisingly, it seems that the link you just posted to that Japanese site has *all* examples of mono jackets!…

      http://www.birkajazz.com/archive/blueNote4000.htm

      Scroll down to see the Tina Brooks “True Blue” and Kenny Dorham “Una Mas” covers. These records were released in 1960 and 1963 respectively and well before the Liberty sale in 1965. I don’t know what the first release with a Liberty label was but it looks like the first record with the new logo is catalog number 4017, Horace Silver’s “Blowin’ the Blues Away” (probably coinciding with the incorporation of the company), so all the releases from then up until I’m guessing around 4200 (sometime in ’65) employed this new scheme: if it was a stereo version it would prefix the “8″ and write “STEREO” in the logo.

      Finally, it looks like the introduction of the “rectangle” logo you’re referring to does coincide with the Liberty sale.

      Sorry about not being more clear before. I know I originally *asked* this question but I took it upon myself to find the answer =)

    • It looks like the rectangular logo become a staple around 4274 (Tyrone Washington’s “Natural Essence”). That record was released in 1968 (LJC also notes that Liberty fell into the hands of outside investors that same year).

      Also, it’s interesting to look at the website you pointed to and to see the variations around the time of the Liberty sale. Sometimes “STEREO” is written alone and away from the logo, and in those instances (including ones with the rectangle logo) it looks like they started using a “mono” sticker if it was a mono press!

  12. Has anyone ever taken a comprehensive listen to the blue note Connoisseur Series vinyl series or the “Top Ten” reissue series? I have Dexter Gordon GO! and I’m extremely content until I get an original at a fair price.

    • Conaseur..connoisewer..coinaseur… thats a hell of a word to spell right. That series launched in 1994 is written up here

      http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=20880#.UHQVNRXA-yU

      I have heard of but dont recall ever seeing one on LP. Perhaps they didnt get distributed in the UK? Correct me otherwise

      Same goes for the Top Ten reissue series, another 1990s initiative I can’t say Ive noticed in any UK second hand stores, though I suspect I would ususally pass on anything “Mastered by Capitol” .

      Interested if anyone has experience of these, opinion and label photos welcome (usual LJC address in ABOUT, 800px flat on)

          • Hard to tell from a web clip but I think the KIng pressing would be preferable if looking at re-issues. The piano and bass above sound veiled and the sax completely disconnected from the rest – as if playing in another room.

            In Response to Richards question above about the Stereo logos – if it says Stereo on the cover and has the different logo then it is a liberty era pressing. Check for the “P” in the deadwax, most likely missing.

          • “if it says Stereo on the cover and has the different logo then it is a liberty era pressing.”

            Sorry Tony but this is simply not true. There are loads of New York USA pressings with RVG and the ear between ’61-’66 that employ the quarter note logo on the cover. It’s not hard to find examples of this on eBay.

  13. Hello, I really enjoyed this article! A few comments:

    1. Regarding your label 4, I am certain there are also stereo releases with this label scheme (which probably warrants a “4a”), and I hypothesize the same is true of label 3.

    2. In 5 and 6, you write, “Mono is the collector format of choice”, and “Early stereo sound engineering can exhibit “kid-with-new-toy” syndrome…”. In my experience, it’s true that monos are more desirable in general, but for many releases, collectors may have this preference in err. Are you aware of this article: http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html#Mono

    As with Beatles’ recordings, I prefer to listen to the mixes that the mixing engineer took the greatest care in producing. According to this article, that is clearly–from recording sessions after October 1958–the stereo mix (also note that, for recording sessions between March ’57 and October ’58, Van Gelder produced both an original mono *and* stereo mix).

    I don’t like the idea of listening to a mono mix that is no more than a fold down of the stereo one. I would not, however, rule out the possibility that those still sound good; the “glue” of a mono mix does produce a desirably “strong” sound.

    3. And finally, it’s interesting that Van Gelder made different choices while remixing the CD reissues. This supports the “kid with a new toy” argument.

    • Hi Richard and welcome. Thanks for your comments.

      You are absolutely right about the 47 West 63rd (label 4) existing in a stereo variation. I overlooked it, thanks for suggestion. I have just the one genuine 47 West 63rd INC+R Stereo (DG and ear proper), so have run with your idea of a 4a/4b and updated with a picture of the stereo variation, picture 4b.

      There may well be a Stereo in the earlier 47W63rd No INC no R, but if there is, I haven’t got one. This is seriously rare and expensive territory! If you (or anone else out there) has such a beast one I will happily post it up if you can email me a picture (800×800 px to address at the end of the “LJC About” in the banner)

      I have a general preference for mono, but I take whatever comes along, and I gave always been very happy with my stereos from Blue Note. I find the extra information, about the position of the instrument on the soundstage, mostly not particularly helpful in connecting with the music, but I recognise other people feel differently. It’s a “chocolate or vanilla?” thing, neither is “better”.

      I have some pretty strange 60′s Stereo editions – Monk on Columbia, where he is going plink-plonk in the corner while Charlie Rouse takes the centre stage like its his record. Or everyone is either left or right and nothing in the middle, or worse, some Coltranes where you get 39 minutes of him in the left corner and you get up every ten minutes to check the other speaker is working. If that is what the engineer intended, then I have to politely disagree – mono makes up for these “artistic differences”

      But I have yet to find a single Roy DuNann Contemporary Stereo that isn’t a delight.

      • With a response that fast, one can only assume you truly love what you are doing here!

        Yeah if I’m not mistaken those “4a’s” are the ones with the gold “STEREO” sticker on the cover of the jacket (now that I think about it, how did they identify stereo vs mono on the jackets from 62-66?)

        I will keep an eye out for a stereo/no INC/no R =)

        My last comment, which I forgot originally: I understand that early 62-66 New York USA editions can have deep grooves, but, as you write, most are not deep groove. I was thinking it may be better to have that photo *not* be of a deep groove =p it could prove a good reference tool for people who need to look at label photos on eBay…?

        This blog is the kind of thing that I’m really into, I hope you don’t mind my critiques, as again I deeply appreciate what you have done here.

        • Good points Richard, you know your Blue Note. I welcome critique, its how things improve. The BN Labels page gets more views daily than any other page, so its worth the effort to raise the bar. I have many more mono originals, but I recognise the rise of Stereo interests a lot of other people.

          The exhibits and the Cheat Sheet are updated as of today, with mono and stereo versions of W63 and NY, and second and later pressing titles have been replaced with (what I think are) first pressings appropriate to that label series. I have added a couple more missing 70′s UA labels for completeness. Job done. If you have any more ideas, the comments pages here are always open.

          In the future I intend to add some content on Blue Note covers and deep groove vs non-deep groove, but I don’t want to duplicate the excellent reference work of Fred Cohen’s Guide book. I like to exploit the audio and visual side, which lends itself to the multimedia format of the Internet. Next up, Blue Note in 3D…

        • The Stereo stickers were only used on the first pressings of a few “transitional” LPs, and also on later re-issues (supposedly to use the labels and covers up)… But were generally NOT used for BN Stereo Pressings.

          There were no Stereo issues on W63 labels (i.e. without the INC.).

          The presence or not of DGs on one of both ides of BNs after 62 is just indicative of whether it is a first pressing or not.

          • Stereo stickers were just a way of using up surplus old mono covers? Aaargh! This is going from bad to worse Tony. Any more bad news while you are on a roll? The vinyl of Stereo self-destructs after 50 years?

          • Is it possible that the arrival of the New York USA label was in tandem with the arrival of the updated quarter note logo? It seems like this is the point in which stereo pressings began to be identified on the cover with the word “stereo” inside the quarter note logo (mono left it blank) in addition to an “8″ being prefixed to the catalog number.

            Also, as is the case with Horace Silver’s “Finger Poppin’” (a record I own both a mono and stereo INC/W63 copy of), the New York USA stereo reissue has an updated cover with the stereo quarter note logo.

  14. Hey thanks mate, quick reply too! Ok yes that explains a lot – I am finding this very interesting, the whole blue note records history and the varying labels, pressing plants. Wow, its a whole different world I have recently discovered. I have hundreds of cd’s and mp3′s which make up the majority of my audio collection and some vinyl, but the variances within the blue note stuff is new to me.
    I am a double bass player, massive Paul Chambers fan, which is why I commented on your Louis Smith ‘Smithville’ post, hadn’t come across that album before!
    Back to that LT-990 Grant Green record for a second, do you think it is a reissue or was it pressed soon after 1979? Surely its a reissue pressed recently…as it was only $20 and sealed?
    Also, I have seen a blue note mono LP with 43 west 61st st label one side, and New York USA the other side. Does this sound a bit sus to you, or could it have been a cross-over period and pressed in NY but using up the left over labels from 43 west address?? It has ear and RVG, and 43 west address on the sleeve.
    Hope you can shed some light on this one!
    Thanks again for the info!
    Cheers,
    Sam

    • The Grant Green – there are two possibilities. Whilst the LT “original” series was pressed between 1979-80, which makes them over 30 years old, I have seen some LTs as modern “clones” by Scorpio, the US digital-to-vinyl anoymous reissuers. Scorpios are often sold sealed/shrinkwrapped and the front and back covers are straight photographic reproduction of the original, on glossy card, usually priced £9/ $15 or thereabouts. They are clones – they do not say they are “reissues” anywhere. Dealers usually price the original LTs around the £20-25 mark -($35-40 USD) Sounds to me you may have a clone. I’ll update my Labelography to include the LTs later today.

      Mixed labels are usually a feature of Blue Note original second or later pressings (as usual with one or two exceptions). As long as they carry the “ear” in the runout, they are still pre-1966 “original Blue Notes” . It was standard practice at the Plastylite plant to use up existing stock of labels from earlier pressings before moving on to more recently printed labels. Nothing was wasted. The variation can be a little as the R mark on one side and not on the other, or more commonly 47West63rd one side NY on the other – sign of a subsequent press after 1962. Nothing suspicious, in fact it can be good news as they are not sought by elite collectors who want only firsts, so cheaper, sonically usually indistinguishable from the earlier press, and a bonus of a few years less vinyl damage.
      One to watch for are the first wave of Liberty reissues in 1966/7 where they too used up old stock labels and covers – but no “ear”. Pressed by RCA who did a great job.

  15. Kind words, thanks. The LT series of “Blue Note Classics” was about fifty records released around 1979 in the final year of United Artists ownership of the Blue Note catalogue and vaults. I believe it was a short-lived management buyout by a couple of UA executives, using the corporate name Liberty United and “Liberty Records” for marketing – the original Liberty Records Inc being long gone. This is the period of the Blue Label/White Note label with the cute dotty inner sleeve. I have seen copies made in the US and others, under the series name “Jazz File” in the UK. The American are on the whole better.
    Michael Cuscuna had acess to the BN vaults, and there he found thousands of old session tapes dating back from 1959-67 that had never been released on record, and barely documented. I guess most were recorded by Van Gelder at Englewood Cliffs, but Cuscuna used other engineers to master the tapes, and the combination of other engineers ability, the equipment used, lightweight vinyl and the work of indifferent pressing plants tells a sorry tale. The music is great but the outcome on vinyl is poor in many cases. I have around a dozen and often they suffer dynamic range compression, loss of top-end and muddy bass.

  16. Hi LJC, very informative site, I am enjoying reading through it, so thanks for the information.
    I am interested to hear your opinion of a recent Blue Note reissue I picked up. The numbers/codes on the lable confuse me a bit after reading through your label info…
    Grant Green – Solid. Blue Note LT-990.
    Its the LT-990 that confuses me, where exactly was this pressed?
    First thing I notice is that the bass is very muddy and lost in this recording…I mean I know Elvin is doing his triplet thing which can sometimes cloud the clarity of the double bass, but It’s just overall very ‘woofy’ sounding. Also the highs seem too unbalanced and un-natural, not just the ride cymbal, the overall recording. It is a great bunch of tunes with a killer lineup, but I am a bit disappointed with the quality. I cannot find any reviews on the net of this reissue either.
    Also the recording was not originally released untill 1979 I believe.
    Anyway, interested to hear what you think..
    Cheers,
    Sam

  17. The first hearing of an original first pressing of Blue Note changed my listening life forever. Still does it every time. But there a lot of other music out there to enjoy on other labels, while you are waiting for that affordable copy of Mobley 1568 to come along.

  18. Yes, I love bluenote jazz. Thats the best of all time. Good rvg recording, good music and artist .. But is a killer in price even when comes to a NY pressing.. Managed to get some of the sonny rollins first pressing . The rest of the album ending up no choice but to get the 45rpm reissue.
    The original confirm sounds better .Imo the original mother tape is still newly recorded just like freshly bake from oven. For the reissue, they are using a at least 50 year old original tape which has gone through many many processing in the pressing plant. That’s why sound quality is confirmed a lose out. The reissue is lacking of the feel of the music. Maybe to many filtering and eq …
    But still I am glad there are reissue at least I can enjoy the bluenote music at a affordable price. Some original cost s arm and leg.
    Lastly enjoy the music… I love BN ….

  19. I came across an interesting record in the mail that I scored for a decent price – $10 – a New York labeled pressing of Jimmy Smith’s The Sermon. It has:

    The original cover with the mono catalog number
    BLP 4011 New York Labels on both sides
    RVG STEREO, BN-ST-4011 on one side
    VAN GELDER stamped, BLP-4011-B-1 on the B side

    (the seller had “turbo listed” the record has having the ear and being in mono, so he gave me $5 back. Woohoo!)
    So..what do you make of this? Liberty issue using the original stereo stamper on side A and a reissue stamper on side B, even though the labels and jacket say that it’s mono? The A side definitely sounds more even than the B, and as I’ve shared before, mono recordings tend to push my system to the brink of distortion at times (definitely Lee Morgan on Flamingo, wailing away). Have you ever seen a mashed up version of a record like this? Also…I wonder why side A doesn’t actually have BNST-84011 since that was the stereo catalog number.

    • The Sermon has a great guest list as I recall, nice price. Must check my own copy. Never seen a mongrel as you describe. We know Liberty canibalised old stock covers and labels, that is not unusual. What is unusual is mixing up a remastered mono stamper on one side with an older RVG stereo stamper on the other. That is, as they say, “RARE!” I would have charged you extra..

    • I had forgotten about this question – sorry – checking my Blakey “Free For All” it is DIVISION OF LIBERTY and has “STEREO” and “VAN GELDER” in small machine stamp in the run out. If yours is missing the stamp, I am baffled, as I can’t think it was so popular it required remastering. There is probably a simple explanation, but I can’t think what it might be.

  20. Fooling around today with my Blue note Collection and I came across something interesting. Hey LJC, is that Free for All Liberty pressing yours? If it is, than I’ll bet you anything it doesn’t have a Van Gelder Stamp. Let’s see if my theory is right?

  21. I wish I had the disposable income.. for any of that, including traveling to Tokyo and Moscow. I will probably have to sell a kidney before I can afford a first pressing of a lot of the titles I’d like

  22. Fred Cohen’s Guide is the Blue Note Collectors bible. It is as definitive as it gets, and it is good value. Only problem is the auction price of these originals, the rare heading for four figures. I can easily identify an original first pressing. Unfortunately I can not afford it. The problem is not lack of information, it is lack of money. Tokyo and Moscow rule.

  23. Thanks for the fast response. Looks like I may end up picking up that second copy. I suppose I can always give my extra to one of my friends in Brazil where Blue Note vinyl is as rare as snow.

    By the way are you familiar with the book on this subject published by this NYC record store, here http://www.jazzrecordcenter.com/

    I’ve been curious about it ever since I first heard about it but the price seems kind of steep when I could be spending that money on, say, actual records.

    thanks for the kind words re: the blog too.

  24. Love this post. Those Skorpio pressings are godawful, I fell for some of them on other labels like Curtom as well as some Donald Byrd BN. Just awful but maybe they sound great on the portable Vestax players my pretentious DJ peers seem to like…

    I’m curious about something regarding the Liberty and United Artists years. Your focus seems to be reissues of the earlier BN catalog during this period, but I have a question about albums released for the first time during that period. I just bought a record (via auction) that falls on the ‘cusp’ year of 1970 – Bobby Hutcherson & Harold Land’s “San Francisco.” Seemingly, for this period they would have been pressed at both West Coast and NJ locations simultaneously? Any opinions on which sound better or what stampers were used? I got the blue/black label from the West Coast, which while I agree is fugly won’t necessarily bother me if it sounds good. Same seller has a blue/white of the same record ending next week, but I kind of want to see if the guy is legit first before I start giving him tons of cash. But this album is a personal favorite of mine and I can see myself picking up both anyway…

    • Hi Flabbergast, nice blog. I like posts that have real content, not just ” I like this” but also why. Excellent writing. Huge fan of Harold Land, love Hutcherson, so this record must be a winner.

      1970 – three years before the oil price spike sealed the fate of thick vinyl, and the big labels went down the toilet. With first release 1970 you have to go with what is on offer.

      The best new or reissues I have ever heard after 1970 are the East Coast classic Blue/White “Division of United Artists” label (1970-3) no markings in runout . The West Coast Blue/black Liberty/UA of the same period are definitely second best. By 1973 theUnited Artists solid Blue Black Note was introduced and everything I have is weak, wherever pressed.

      Hope this is helpful, but I am a bit lost after 1970.

  25. 7.DIVISION OF LIBERTY (1966-70) I have pressings that have the “RVG” stamp and the “Van Gelder” Stamp and one’s that have no matrix stamps. The RVG’s sound extraordinary. The Van Gelders are very good and the No Stamps are mixed, some have really good sound and some are awful.

    • Welcome Carlos, to the mysteries of Blue Note! With first pressings just becoming unaffordable, trying to sort the good from the bad in the years that followed is a worthwhile task. All opinions are good here

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