Verve and it’s predecessor’s record labels, Norgran and Clef
![Verve-Clef-Norgran-Cheat-Sheet].jpg](https://londonjazzcollector.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/verve-clef-norgran-cheat-sheet.jpg)
Verve Records founded by Norman Granz in 1956, absorbing the catalogues of his earlier labels, Clef Records (founded in 1946) and Norgran Records (founded in 1953), and material which had been licensed to Mercury previously.
Granz sold Verve to MGM in 1961 for $3 million. Creed Taylor was appointed as producer, with the brief to adopt a more commercial approach, thereby ensuring he would leave very little music of any lasting merit. In the seventies, the label became part of the PolyGram label group, at this point incorporating the Mercury/EmArcy jazz catalog, which Philips, part owners of PolyGram, had earlier acquired. Verve Records became the Verve Music Group after PolyGram was merged with Seagram’s Universal Music Group in 1998
Reflecting its serial corporate merger and aquisition history, VMG today is owner of a huge historic catalogue of recordings, most of which it has absolutely no idea what to do with and for which there exists precious little commercial market.
1. Norgran Records – (Norman Granz) mid-Fifties, predating Verve
(Photo credit: Johnny P)
2. Clef Records pre-1956, mono DG, predating Verve
2B Verve Popular 2000 series Red label Yellow T circa 1955
3.Verve 8000 series – Clef Trumpeter – Yellow – mono DG (1956-60)
4 Verve Trumpeter (1958)
Black label, deep groove, hand-inscribed catalogue number and matrix number
A beautiful original first pressing with very fine sound, that was fiercely fought over on eBay. And won without paying to much over the odds.
Variation: adds words “Long Play” and “High Fidelity” around the outer text (photo courtesy of Alan S) :
5. Verve “T” mono DG (1956-60) no registered trademank
Clef, Verve and MGM mono and stereo labels courtesy of JoeL
6. Verve “T” MGM mono (1960-66)
(Note the appearance of the registered trademark “R” after “Verve”) Footer now adds “MGM RECORDS”
7. Verve Stereo (1956-60)
(No “R”)
8. Verve MGM Stereo (1960-66)
With “R”
9. Verve Japan 1980’s
Photos (various) : courtesy of Joe L
Postscript: American recording Society Discography
(For more see dedicated post)
| Catalogue | Title |
| G 401 | Giants Of Jazz (LP, Comp) |
| G 402 | Count Basie And His Band That Swings The Blues |
| G 403 | The Swinging Jazz Of Lionel Hampton |
| G 404 | Jam Session |
| G 410 | The Progressive Big Band Jazz Of Woody Herman |
| G 412 | Art Tatum And Buddy DeFranco – The Flying Fingers Of Art Tatum And Buddy DeFranco |
| G 413 | The Urban Jazz Of Roy Eldridge And Benny Carter |
| G 418 | The Swinging Guitar Of Tal Farlow |
| G 419 | Jazz Scene |
| G 421 | Johnny Hodges And The Ellington All-Stars |
| G 425 | Battle of The Saxes |
| G 433 | Ella Fitzgerald And Billy Holiday – At Newport |
| G-405 | Jazz Creations Of Dizzy Gillespie |
| G-406 | Kings Of The Keyboard |
| G-407 | The Cool Jazz Of Stan Getz |
| G-408 | The Dixieland Jazz Of Bob Scobey |
| G-409 | Billie Holiday Sings |
| G-411 | Jazz Rhythms of Gene Krupa |
| G-415 | An Oscar For Peterson |
| G-416 | The Oscar Peterson Trio, The Gene Krupa Quartet, JATP All Stars – Jazz at the Philharmonic |
| G-417 | Lester Young, Teddy Wilson – Pres And Teddy |
| G-422 | Basie’s Best |
| G-423 | Dizzy Gillespie’s Big Band Jazz |
| G-426 | Anita Sings For Oscar |
| G-429 | Dizzy Gillespie, John Lewis, The Modern Jazz Sextet, Sonny Stitt – Cross Currents |
| G-431 | Lady Sings The Blues |
| G-432 | Jazz Looks Ahead |
| G-434 | Gerry Mulligan Quartet, The And The Teddy Wilson Trio – At Newport |
| G-435 | Mainstream Jazz: Swing |
| G-437 | The Cecil Taylor Quartet / The Gigi Gryce – Donald Byrd Jazz Laboratory Quintet – Modern Jazz |
| G-438 | The Oscar Peterson Trio At Newport |
| G-439 | Ruby Braff Octet And Bobby Henderson – Ruby Braff Octet And Bobby Henderson At Newport |
| G-441 | Now’s The Time |
| G-442 | Count Basie / Joe Williams – Count Basie Swings and Joe Williams Sings |
| G-443 | Stan Getz ’57 |
| G-444 | Lester Young, Vic Dickenson, Roy Eldridge, Teddy Wilson, Freddie Greene*, Gene Ramey, Jo Jones – Giants Of Jazz, Vol. II (LP, Comp) |
| G-445 | Hey, Ruby! |
| G-450 | The Fletcher Henderson All Stars Big Reunion |
| G-452 | Jazz A La Midnight |
| G-607 | Cole Porter, Irving Berlin – Moods With Cole Porter / Moods With Irving Berlin |
POSTSCRIPT: The mystery Orange label/ black T
Red-orange black T anomaly.
LondonJazzCollector 
Good evening-
I have question. This weekend I picked up to original Verve recordings of Gil Evans from the early 60s, both black Verve labels. While the records are clean and relatively scratch free, the sound on them is very loud and distorted, not at all like I have experienced with other labels original recordings from this same ERA. Is this common, for this label?
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Pressings in this era were often cut loud compared with modern day reissues, a good couple of notches on the volume control. That in itself doesn’t account for distortion, which is possibly originates in the recording or the mastering of a particular title. Recording sections of a large ensemble as a group is hostage to the louder and brighter instrument like trumpet, Gill Evans large ensemble? Is the distortion in the peaks, or across the dynamic range? Is it more prominent approaching the center label or across the piece? A few things to listen for to pinpoint the issue on this recording, but no, it is not “normal” across the Verve catalogue.
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I’ve got a stereo reissue(?) copy of ‘Count Basie Swings and Joe Williams Sings’ that has a black Verve/MGM label with bottom rim text of ‘MANUFACTURED BY MGM RECORDS, INC., 7165 SUNSET BOULEVARD, HOLLYWOOD, CALIF. 90046’. I don’t see that label in your database and would love to date this release. If I knew how to do so, I would gladly send you some high res images. Thanks!
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Shoot me a label photo or scan , send as a file attachment to the email address given in CONTACT LJC found in the LJC homepage banner.
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The Verve label with ‘MANUFACTURED BY MGM RECORDS, INC., 7165 SUNSET BOULEVARD, HOLLYWOOD, CALIF. 90046’ rim print was in use from 1972 to 1976.
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Hey guys, this is very minor but I was reading through your “Verve” section and initial paragraphs on Norman Granz and “Clef”. You called it “Cleff”.
Your site is invaluable. We thank you.
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Does anybody know the difference in time between Verve’s yellow and white promo labels? What is the time period for each of them? I have 2 promo copies of Bill Evans’s Alone – with yellow and white labels. The difference is only in slash in the number between “V” and digits: yellow have “-“, but white have “/”. Looks like yellow is first promo label but I can’t find any additional information about it
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Verve’s West Coast promo labels were white (often with deep groove) while their East Coast promo labels were yellow (often without deep groove).
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Thank you for the answer. But does it mean that the same record can be in white and yellow with the same matrix/runouts numbers? It must be pressed on different plants if you are talking about DG (present and absent) and, theoreticaly, matrix numbers must be different…
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Seeing that this is an active thread, I’ll re-post my earlier question —- I have three question regarding what is commonly referred to as the Norman Granz’ Jam Session series. FIRST QUESTION: Regarding the original 12″-LP edition, can you confirm that the release order went (i) Mercury; (ii) Cleff; (iii) Verve trumpet; and (iv) Verve – T. SECOND QUESTION, did all of the series come out in a 7″ edition? THIRD QUESTION: I’ve heard rumor that there was a 10″ of the Jam Sessions, like the JATP but I’ve never seen a listing for one.
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Gentlemen – I am out of my depth here, drowning not waving, over to you.
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I can confirm the release order went:
(i) Mercury
(ii) Clef
(iii) Verve trumpet
(iv) Verve – T
But unfortunately cannot help with the other questions.
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It would be great if you’d be more specific.
As I know, there were at least 9 records that were issued in the Norman Granz Jam Sessions series over the years..
1. Nothing to add here – with several re-releases on Clef and Verve
2. I guess the first 5 Jam Sessions were printed in 7″ format, 6th went to MGC 656 instead of MGC 4006 and wasn’t issued in 7″. Later jam sessions weren’t issued in 7″ as well.
3. Didn’t get that one..
I’m not a pro in Jam Sessions series, so if I’m wrong, please correct me
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Here is something, I’ve got something more to confuse us with: Norman Granz’ Jam Session #5, was issued as Clef MG C-655 with a black trumpet label; and Clef MG C-4005 with a blue trumpet label, from covers are identical, but the back covers have the respective catalog numbers, which is the first pressing, and which is the reissue?
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The key would be to see if the runouts of either have the other catalog number scribbled out with a different catalog number added. Do you have either copy in hand? I see on Discogs a MG C-4005 with white labels but not one with blue labels.
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I answered my own question, MG C-4005 is earlier. The Discogs entry for MG C-655 shows “MGC-4005B” stamped in the side B deadwax in the label image. Now the question is there a MG C-4005 with blue labels and is it earlier or later than the white labels shown on Discogs?
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I encountered an Ella and Louis MG V-4003 with an orange label and black T and cannot find any information regarding that different label. 2 other websites showed pics of the orange/black label yet no description nor info on it. Can you comment on this??
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Label 2B in the page above?
A Hoffman thread includes the following regarding the matrix: :
“If you have machine numbers it was cut at Radio Recorders. If you have hand written numbers it was mastered at Ami Handni Mastering on Yucca.”
More here – seems some discussion as to whether this or the black label/T is earlier
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/dating-my-ella-louis-pressing.309783/
UPDATE: apparently not – see three label postscript at foot of post
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Sharing my experience on this topic:
As we can see labels did change that way – at first there were color labels, then black (for example, Norgan yellow at first, then Norgran black, Verve trumpeter yellow label at the first part of 8000 series, then Verve trumpeter black), even in the later 60s they went the same story with the Verve DJ issues with yellow label, then usual in black. Popular series (4000 and 2000 had three label versions – yellow/orange, blue and black).
I’ve never encountered copies with black Verve labels of some early rare titles, for example Toni Harper Sings MGV-2001, which definitely was issued in 1956 (Billboard helps) and features orange/yellow or blue label.
(Please send me a pic, if I’m wrong)
Orange/yellow or blue labels prevail on titles which definitely not to be reissued a lot (Phil Moore orchestra, for example, MGV-2005)
Yellow/orange label never appear on late 50’s MGV-4000 or MGV-2000 titles, for example Ella divided (I mean vol.1 or vol. 2) songbooks never issued that way, only with black labels.
Yellow/orange label issues I have feature laminated sleeve, which was used on Clef/Norgan issues in the middle 50s, and faded away in the later 50s to return in early 60s. The same story with Ella and Louis record, the yellow/orange label issue feature a laminated sleeve, black label issue has a non-laminated sleeve. Most interesting is that the Ella and Louis yellow/orange label issue features the cover design as the early Clef and Norgan were issued – the back of the cover is glued over the front (like for example Prestige covers were made), but the black label Ella and Louis features a usual for late 50s cover design – a photo is glued on front.
Therefore I’m supposing the right order is:
1. yellow/orange label (only on popular 2000 and 4000 series), ~1956-1957
2. blue label (only on popular 2000 and 4000 series) ~1957-1959
3. black label ~1959-
I may be not right in the years, but I think the overall idea is right
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I checked my copies of Ella/Louis
Both are Orange Yellow label Deep Groove pressings.
Copy 1 is machine stamped matrix, laminated cover.
Copy 2 is etched matrix, matte cover
Obviously copy 2 is a later, but still early pressing. Thankfully for me, copy 1 is MINT, and copy 2 is VG+. Easy choice regarding which to sell off….
As always this site is a wonderful resource.
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rl1856
thanks a lot for sharing! mint copy of that record is not so easy to find by the way..
do you have an original inner sleeve on these?
i’ve checked my black label copy – it has a Verve inner sleeve marketing some late 50s even maybe early 60s issues..
I’ve replaced the original inner sleeve on my orange/yellow label copy, but as I remember the inner sleeve was a plain one..
A
sorry I’ve missed that BLACK T
are you a seller or a buyer of that copy currently on ebay?
i was watching that one and it kinda messed me up, since it has these rare labels (variation on yellow/orange ones), machine stamped matrix and yet a non-laminated cover..
anyway, this one is as original as yellow/orange copy
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I do not own that one, but was intrigued by the orange/black label as I have not been able to find information on it. I do own however an original red-orange/yellow label of this album. Does anyone know a reason for the Orange/BLACK label? Discogs mentioned it as one of the versions, but does not provide a year for it. It is a US release as well as the Black and Orange/yellow…
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This is the label I am refering to. Orange background with Black T.
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A quick look at Discogs examples failed to come up with any other examples of the third label, red/orange black T
It does not seem to be a “continuous series”, rather a one-off anomaly. Happens a lot with some labels.
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According to the label, that black version above has the side B songs on side A. This black label on Discogs has the songs on the same sides as the two orange label copies: https://www.discogs.com/Ella-Fitzgerald-And-Louis-Armstrong-Ella-And-Louis/release/6470785
About that orange with black “T”, never seen that one before!
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By the way, were there any DJ / Promo issues of Clef/Norgran/Verve before it was sold to MGM?
I remember only an Ella recording, Like Someone In Love, which had a special cover with a letter from Norman Granz himself and a b&w label.
Curiosly, it goes right after Ella and Louis LP with a MGV-4004 number
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Just picked up Bill Evans Trio “Trio 65 v/v6-8613. Seems a mono release with non sterio black label from i oresume 1965. Also Has Van Gelder stamp. Any comments on Van Gelder produced and mastered Verve recordings?
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I’ve got a question about the yellow vs. black Norgran labels. There seems to be some consensus among collectors that the yellow labels are earlier, but none of the guides I’ve seen define that. In fact it looks like the labels were often used simultaneously. Any thoughts on this?.
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And specifically I’m thinking of Ellis In Wonderland. I’ve seen both black and yellow labels on this one.
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Yellow labels are earlier – that’s clear because some later Norgan titled never issued with yellow labels.
What’s more – yellow label covers feature a laminated sleeve and the early cover scheme, black label issues usually feature a non-laminated sleeve and sometimes photo is in another color filter.
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Regarding Herb Ellis – In Wonderland. This is a late Norgran issue (1081), so there’s no difference in the cover – all Norgan issued feature a non-laminated sleeve with an yellow photo.
I guess the black Norgan label Herb Ellis may be even rarer, than yellow label, and maybe was pressed at the same (almost same) time.
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Suggestion: How about having similar coverage of the American Recording Society jazz catalog. Most of the issues came from Norman Granz, although he was not affiliated in anyway with ARS. Rudy Van Gelder mastered most of the tapes provided by Granz. I learned this in talking with Van Gelder himself. Apparently Abbey pressed the ARS records. They look good and sound good, and contain a lot of interesting recordings. The early, lower-numbered albums appear regularly on E-bay, but not so with the upper end of the catalog numbers, some of which I have never seen. I have most of the catalog but am missing several of the highest numbers.
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Hello and thanks again for a quick overview of Norman Granz labels
I know that Norman Granz recording aren’t quite popular among jazz collectors, but personally I think there are quite a few records one should own.
So, there’s one little, but important thing I wanted to add
Norgran and Clef label designs vary in the size of the trumpeter – there is a large and a small trumpeter (similar to Emarcy designs). The design with the large trumpeter is definitely the older one. To distinguis the large one from a small one there is a word TRADEMARK under the trumpeter logo, which can easily be seen under a large logo, but appears like little circles under the small logo.
What’s important about this is that the large trumpeter label design was pressed on very heavy shellac and usually features the loud hissing sound on modern sound systems, which really can interfere with the music. Later small trumpeter design was pressed on still heavy, but lighter vinyl and one can find a pressing without above mentioned hissing sound much easier.
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Alexander, some time ago already that we met at the Bielorusskaya Voksal café. A pleasure to browse through your wonderful website.
Re the size of the trumpeter on the Granz labels, do you notice the size difference on 25 and 30 cm albums, or only on 30 cm albums? I never noticed any difference. Do you have a specific album in mind?
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Rudolf, very glad to hear from you!
As I know, all 10-inch Clef and Norgran albums were issued with the large trumpeter logo on shellac, but 12-inch ones do vary.
For example, here’s a picture of an old one
word TRADEMARK can be seen under the trumpeter logo and it’s pressed on very heavy shellac, non-flexible
And here’s a small trumpeter logo
Record is flexible, lighter, definitely vinyl or some vinyl-shellac mix
I’ve noticed that vinyl appears in around Clef 650s, but I’m not sure..unfortunately I don’t own any of the first 30 Norgrans, but I think the situation is quite the same with them.
I’m still not sure if there were any reissues on the same label (I mean if some records from Clef 600-650 were issued on shellac and later on vinyl-shellac mix).
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There is also one thing I’ve noticed while adding photos here
It’s written Jazz At The Philharmonic Inc. at bottom (instead of Clef or Norgran), on shellac ones
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Thanks for the illustrations. I must admit that I never paid attention to this manifest difference. As you rightly mention, there is the mention “Jazz at the Philhormonic” which becomes later Clef Records or Norgran Records Inc. Another difference is the black: early pressings were shiny, later ones mat. May we assume that the change from big trumpeter into small coincided with JATP < Clef and shiny < to mat? I have had certain catalogue items in both versions: for me the distinctive difference was the shiny versus mat question and I have always, instinctively, favoured the shiny ones.
I will pull out a few Norgrans (and Clefs) to see if our theory is right.
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You’re certainly right about this shiny/mat thing!
One more coincidence I’ve noticed while looking through Clefs – there’s clearly a difference in cover designs and I suppose the change is made at the same time that this shiny/mat shellac/vinyl change happens.
Here’s a quick example – a photo is printed directly on the cardboard at the front and text is glued at the back of the cover
And later they started doing quite the opposite – photo is glued at the front and the text is just printed on cardboard at the back, what remained to be the design for the next many years on Clef, Norgran and Verve till the early 60s (with some rare exclusions like gatefold albums).
So it’s not only the color tone that changed from Clef/Norgran covers to Verve Trumpeter label reissues, but also the design
Here’s an original Clef cover
And this one is a Verve reissue where a white rim can be noticed, since it’s glued
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I have not had the time to pull out a few Clefs. What you say about the manufacturing process of the sleeves is absolutely right. Also note the “HI FI RECORDING” sticker on the early HAMP qrt.
I will revert to you later.
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I was writing a long reply, but suddenly after pressing reply everything was lost
Anyway, you’re certainly right about this shiny/mat thing – it’s quite a way to distinguish an older pressing
I noticed one change in cover design, which seems to have happened at the same time this shiny/mat story – I’ll try to write this long story again in some time 😉
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Aleksandr: this is most interesting stuff! I discovered a few interesting things:
both the big and the small trumpeter logos have “trademark” printed underneath. This is well visible on the Norgran labels since they are yellow.. My copies of:
-MG-N 1000. This Getz album sold very well. Thus my second pressing copy has a label mentioning Norgran Sales Corp. – small trumpeter and trade mark in very small characters.
-MG-N 1001 Webster. Mine has JATP, big trumpeter and, of course, trademark.
Now for the few Clefs remaining on my shelves.
-MG-C 610. Bud Powell. JATP, big trumpeter, trademark. Shiny black.
-MG-C 646. Bird. Clef records. Small trumpeter, trademark. Shiny black.
-MG-C 732 Brookmeyer (re-issue of Clef 644): Clef Records, small trumpeter, trademark, mat black.
So I learnt that “trade mark” on all issues featuring the trumpeter logo; shiny labels may have small trumpeter logo.
The vinyl looks similar whether big or small trumpeter. There may be different weights. I did not check that. This unflexible shellack is common for the 25 cm issues.
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Rudolf, great share!
I’ve been digging more and unfortunately it’s much more complicated as I thought at first.
This is what I found about Clef
– large trumpeter changed to small around MGC 637 (Flip Phillips Quintet still had the large trumpeter label).
– shiny label changed to mat after MGC 685 (that’s the last one I have with shiny label), I think even some 700s were issued with shiny label
– JATP inc. changed to Clef Inc. after MGC 660
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Further my last, I decided to check the few Clef albums I still have. There are no surprises:
633- Basie – small trumpet, TM, Clef Records, shiny black label
644- Brookmeyer – ditto, as # 633
666- Basie – ditto
671- Roy and Diz – ditto
682- Lawrence Brown – ditto
743- Metronome 1956 – mat labels, rest same as above.
As an added bonus:
Norgran 1071 Pres – yellow small trumpeter label, TM, Norgran Sales Corp.
Norgran 1086 Buddy Rich – mat black labels, rest as # 1071.
So the bigger trumpet logo labels, first pressings in the lower 600 series.
Granz switched to uniform mat black labels for Clef and Norgran at the end of their life cycle, just before merging everything into the composite Verve label.
I am glad you raised the subject. It was a nice occasion to deepen our knowledge.
Poka.
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Hello, I have a question about a label. I bought a record at the local record store of Stan Getz (Jazz Samba) in stereo. Although the record came out in 1962, the label is identical to the pre-1960 stereo label. Adding to the intrigue is the fact that the record was made in Canada. Any ideas or input about the label? I’m sure time travel can safely be ruled out.
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Canada often used old label designs for a few years after the US transitioned to a new label design. Common for many labels, Capitol, Columbia, etc.
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Thanks Aaron! I figured the fact that it being made in Canada had something to do with it.
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Hello, where do red Vervel labels with a yellow T come in? I just picked up a copy of Anita O’Day Verve-MG V-2000 from 1956 which has red/yellow instead of black/silver label.
Kind regards,
Peterjan
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Not seen the red/yellow T label before, but as far as I can tell from the Verve discography, the label is found on recordings released around 1955/6, onwards – the Verve Popular 2000 series. I’ve put a picture in at 2B above. If anyone can add any more info, I’m glad to be corrected.
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I have three question regarding what is commonly referred to as the Norman Granz’ Jam Session series. Regarding the original 12″-LP edition, can you confirm that it went (i) Mercury; (ii) Cleff; (iii) Verve trumpet; and (iv) Verve – T. Second question, did all of the series come out in a 7″ edition? And lastly, I’ve heard rumor that there was a 10″ of the Jam Sessions, like the JATP but I’ve never seen a listing for one.
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Question about the mid 60s Verve VSP pressings. I have a few…fairly heavy vinyl..these are reissues …but we’re the special quality or budget at the time? ,Thanks
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Hi all.
Recently I have purchased some Verve German pressings sold as first pressings.
Any info about the year of reléase in the label or outer jacket.
But in the label you can read:
MGM RECORDS-A DIVISION OF LOEW’S INCORPORATED
And follows below in another line:
MFD BY DEUSTCHE GRAMMOPHON GESELLSCHAFT
For instance, Jimmy Smith “Who’s afraid of Virginia Wolf?” title, V 6-8583 Stereo recording.
Does anyone know something about the year of reléase of these recordings?
Any help is really welcome.
Thanks so much.
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Deutsche Grammophon often stamped the original publishing date in the deadwax on pre-1970 records.
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Thanks Aaron. But any date is stamped there. Only: Made in Germany – V6=8583=2 A , and this other: M6 OK F1. I don’t know what means.
A bit strange.
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I keep a note of the original Verve catalogue number along with local reissue number. I have V6-8578 Bill Evans Trio 64 – with in five titles of your number, recorded in 1964, so 1964-5 would seem a reasonable guess for release. I’ve seen the M6 stamp before on similar pressings, another guess, something to do with pressing plant, mother or stamper number, or something else. (Leaves the door wide open for others)
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Thanks, I agree with you. Buyer told me they were first pressings and I think so. First half of 60s seems to be right. Anyway these German recordings sound really fine and I’ve not noticed any difference between them and my other 1st USA pressings. But perhaps I own wooden and not golden ears…
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Hi folks,
first time post here – great site!
I think I can help a bit with the runout info on L.Sánchez copy:
It’s definetely a pressing and lacquer cut by Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft. M6 is a code for the date when the lacquer was cut, in this case December 1966.
DGG used a date code for their cuts from 1954 to 1972 (quoted from Discogs):
“The letter symbolises the month (A = January, B = February, C = March, D = April, E = May, F = June, G = July, H = August, J = September, K = October, L = November, M = December) and the figures the year of the mastering, e.g. 3 = 1953 or 1963, 4 = 1954 or 1964, 9 = 1959 or 1969.
Since 1970 the systematic is 70, 71, until it was given up in June 1972.”
V6=8583=2 means it’s the second lacquer cut from the tape.
1 should be the sequential mother number.
F should be the stamper number (provided the stamp is rotated by 90 degrees in the runout), meaning it’s stamper number 6. (A=1, B=2, etc.)
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Thanks for posting, I never about the date coding on DGG records!
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Hello, I have been a lurker on your site for awhile. I have a Verve specific question. I have 2 copies of Getz Meets Mulligan in Hi-Fi; one with a deep groove trumpeter logo (shown above as used in 1958), and a copy with the usual “T” label (shown above as used from 1956-1960). Which is the earlier pressing ? Thanks !
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MGV 8249: definetly trumpeter.
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The label typesetting would be grouped as follows:
– 1 (Norgran) – Apparently a pressing by RCA Victor’s Indianapolis, IN plant; I saw this typesetting on many a 45 and LP pressed by them in the mid-’50’s to early ’60’s period. Can’t say who typeset the label, though
– 2 (Clef), 4 (Verve Trumpeter), 7 (Verve Stereo) – all printed by Bert-Co Press of Los Angeles, CA.
– 3 (Verve Clef Trumpeter) – in-house type from RCA’s Indianapolis plant, circa 1956-57 (top-heavy with Varityper fonts)
– 5 (Verve T) – a Columbia pressing from Bridgeport, CT, with their trademark fonts gracing the label
– 6 (Verve T / MGM mono) – with 1.25″ deep groove, pressed by MGM’s own Bloomfield, NJ plant, with label fonts from Pace Press, Inc. of New York City.
– 8 (Verve T / MGM stereo) – pressed by H.V. Waddell Co., Burbank, CA, with a collection of Ludlow fonts in the Tempo family that were characteristic of pressings from that plant. Waddell pressed 45’s for MGM / Verve through 1966, and LP’s right up to the end of the line for MGM itself as a record label in 1976, when by-then parent PolyGram transferred the remaining MGM artists to Polydor.
It should also be noted that up to MGM’s acquisition of Verve, the bulk of lacquer mastering for Verve was handled by Radio Recorders in Hollywood. I.I.N.M., after Creed Taylor assumed A&R duties for Verve upon MGM’s takeover, was one of the earliest associations between him and the legendary Rudy Van Gelder – which would continue well into Taylor’s founding of CTI Records (first as an A&M subsidiary, then as an indie).
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I am speechless… (and you can quote me on that)
Are samples of these fonts available in the public domain I wonder? Could make an interesting “Advanced class in label recognition”.
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